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Vote for Change - V for Change
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Do you agree with my "Training Video"?
Yes!
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
No!
75%
 75%  [ 9 ]
Bits and Peices
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 12

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Ravenna



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:51 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ahem, no double-posting please.

devilman2045 wrote:
I personally don't want gay marriage; but applying a general term like civil union would be perferct with me. I think it's not so much an issue of the unity, but the term used for it; when it comes to most people.


Well personally, from what I understand from the rhetoric that has been bandied about on the subject, I am aware that there are those who feel like terms such as "civil union" border on "all are equal, but some are more equal than others".

I think it's important that all citizens are equal in the eyes of the law, and I get concerned when I hear people make a point of making a difference between "marriage" and "civil unions", because quite honestly, I'm worried that there is a difference in legal rights implied.

I will admit that since I'm from the UK I don't know all of the exact facts on current American politics - one of my friends that I met while on year abroad is an American political science student, he did explain some facets of the system to me.

Basically, I think what worries me is that people, or perhaps the government will just hide behind the nomenclature on topics like these, and there could be more problems caused. ^_^
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Maeniel



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 7:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I personally would like the abolishment of the term "marriage." To me, it's a rather religious word. I think that, legally, everybody should have civil unions, then your church can marry you off. The problem I have with having civil unions/marriages is that whole "separate/equal" thing. I just don't *quite* believe it will be the same...but I'm willing to take it one step at a time. I don't think the term "marriage" is going to go away any time soon, so I'm perfectly happy to just call it marriage for now.

But yeah, Obama's sentiment is there. Politicians above the governor level can't really "approve" of gay marriage because of the potential backlash; I do believe that he cares, and that he's going to push this country in the direction it needs to go. I also feel like the instant gay marriage (or civil union) is adopted, many problems can be resolved in other areas.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 8:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

It seems to me that the Lady distrust Palin based on lack of leadership ability, as do a fairly large section of America.

Personaly, I look at it like this:

Palin - 4 yrs as Govenor, plus previous number of years as a city council leader.

Obama - 173 days as a senator (out of a two year term). That's slightly less 25% of the time he was supposed to serve.

Besides, his policies and veiw points are (hesitates to use the word immediatly after this statment) dramatically skewed when portrayed in the media. If you sit down and look at his voting record, and the actual laws he voted for, you'll find what he says and what he's voted for are two different things.
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horsin'around



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 9:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I am from the UK as well, but I have been living in America for the past...what, 7 or 8 years? So the election does indeed interest me. As it is, I do not wish to post my incredibly biased, opinionated views on this forum, but I do enjoy reading other people's thoughts and debates.

Onward! *grabs popcorn*
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:00 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

horsin'around wrote:
I am from the UK as well, but I have been living in America for the past...what, 7 or 8 years? So the election does indeed interest me. As it is, I do not wish to post my incredibly biased, opinionated views on this forum, but I do enjoy reading other people's thoughts and debates.

Onward! *grabs popcorn*


Oh come on!!! You might as well get in on the action too!! The rest of us all gathered 'round here, and are hoping to enjoy our popcorn by watching you for a while! Besides, how much more harm could it do to the forums? What harms already been done is irreplicable.

Wink
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Asa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I abhor politics, and while I enjoyed your narrative in your first post, my stomach was in knots for the rest of it. From all the way back in the chat room, I have three personal NOs: No swearing, No religion, and No politics. It gets too ugly, too fast. Especially since most of the time, I'm in the minority.

So I, as well, am not going to post my political views, but I do agree that everyone who has a stake in the matter (meaning all Americans, I guess) should get out and vote in November. If you don't vote, you give up your right to complain about the results.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asa wrote:
I abhor politics, and while I enjoyed your narrative in your first post, my stomach was in knots for the rest of it. From all the way back in the chat room, I have three personal NOs: No swearing, No religion, and No politics. It gets too ugly, too fast. Especially since most of the time, I'm in the minority.

So I, as well, am not going to post my political views, but I do agree that everyone who has a stake in the matter (meaning all Americans, I guess) should get out and vote in November. If you don't vote, you give up your right to complain about the results.


Like I said in my previous reply, everyone should just say what they're thinking. I assume most of us are adults here. Perhaps we could act like it while discussing our beliefs/veiws?

I just can't help but to think that coming here to point out that you think something, but can't share out of fear that it will become a brawl is a shame, not to mention a waste of bandwidth and board space.

To borrow a famous quote for example: A people should not be afraid of an established order. The order should be afraid of it's people.

It is our ideological views, opinions, dreams, goals, and willingness to be wrong, and possably cause a stir that not only founded my great country, and that propels it forward, but still manages to make us unique as individuals.

So I ask one thing of every poster that comes on here: Tell us what your veiws are. No one will attack you for them. No one will come down harshly on you (or they'll face the Poogle Stick!!!).

Lets make this topic, this section of the board great! Lets unite as several people from several countries, from different backgrounds, and walks of life, to establish a sense of world unity, or at least, world understanding. Even if it's only on a small scale, and only on this board, on this one topic for a short time, who cares?

As I said before: no one will harass you for your viewpoints here. Don't be afraid to share.

Remember, though non existant, harsh words may hurt, but ideas are bullet proof!!!

Become bullet proof my friends....
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Asa



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PostPosted: Sat Oct 04, 2008 11:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

*shakes head* Nah, it's not out of fear that I conceal my opinion, but the fact that I believe it to be private and none of your business. My main reason for posting was to agree with the idea that everyone should vote, so I was, indeed, saying what I was thinking.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:09 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asa wrote:
*shakes head* Nah, it's not out of fear that I conceal my opinion, but the fact that I believe it to be private and none of your business. My main reason for posting was to agree with the idea that everyone should vote, so I was, indeed, saying what I was thinking.


The latter half of that is a good thing. The former seems like a waste of time to say though.
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Tinalles
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 12:30 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

devilman2045 wrote:
Palin - 4 yrs as Govenor, plus previous number of years as a city council leader.


Hmm. According to Sarah Palin's official biography at the Alaskan State Government web site, she took office as governor on December 4, 2006. If I count correctly, that's 670 days as governor, which is just over one year and ten months.

And previously, she was the Mayor of Wasilla, an exurb of Anchorage, starting from 1996. Before that she was a Wasilla city councilwoman, starting from 1992.

Reckoning by years, then, Palin's legislative experience consists of:

4 years as a city councilwoman (92-95)
11 years as Mayor of Wasilla (96-2006)
2 years as Governor of Alaska (07-08)

For a total of 17 years of experience.

devilman2045 wrote:
Obama - 173 days as a senator (out of a two year term). That's slightly less 25% of the time he was supposed to serve.


Are you referring to Obama's tenure as a state senator in Illinois, or the amount of time he's spent in the U.S. Senate, or both? Please clarify.

According to his official bio on senate.gov, Obama was sworn into office as a U.S. senator on January 4, 2005. I make that 1,369 days as a U.S. senator, or just over 3 years and 9 months.

Prior to that, Obama held office as a state senator in Illinois, representing the 13th district (part of Chicago's south side). He first took office on January 8, 1997, and was re-elected twice more for a total of three terms as a state Senator. So:

8 years as an Illinois state senator (97 to 04)
4 years as a United States senator (05 to 08)

For a total of twelve years legislative experience. I'm not sure where you're getting the 173 days figure.

Let's compare.

If you go strictly by year count, Palin has more legislative experience than Obama does -- 17 years versus 12 years. That leaves out some important things, though, such as what level of government they were working at. State level legislative work is more complex than city level, for example, because it involves larger numbers of people. Let's break it down by level of government: city, state, and national.

Code:
Legislative Level   Palin      Obama
Local               15 years    ---
State               2 years     8 years
National            ---         4 years


I've tried to make the columns line up just by eyeballing them, sorry if they don't work in your browser!

To continue, I notice a pattern here: Obama started higher on the scale and moved up more quickly. I'm not going to try to explain that; you could spin it either way, in favor of Palin or in favor of Obama. It is however worth noting.

Another factor to consider is how many people these two politicians represented. Let's start with Palin.

For most of her political career to date, Palin served in the city of Wasilla. According to the U.S. Census population finder, Wasilla had 4,028 in 1990, 5,469 in 2000, and an estimated population of 9,780 in 2007. (Notes for foreign readers: the U.S. Census occurs only once every ten years, so the next full census won't be until 2010). That means that during the first 15 years of her political career (88.24% of it to date), Sarah Palin was never responsible for more than 10,000 people. In her most recent office as Governor of Alaska, she's been responsible for a whole state, of course. Geographically it's the largest state in the union, but in terms of population it's rather small -- the most recent Census estimate for Alaska puts its population at 670,053.

For the bulk of Obama's political career so far (8 years, 66.66%), he represented Chicago's 13th District. The best estimate I've found for the 13th district comes from the web site of Obama's successor in that region, and puts it at 748,189 people in 2005, the year Obama left the office to begin at the U.S. Senate. (The same source lists the place's most unique feature as "McDonald's Hamburger University", so I'm not entirely certain the source is reliable -- if anyone has a more reliable source, I'd love to see it.) Since then he's been representing Illinois, having a population of 12,831,970 (2006 est.)

As with the years-in-service, population estimates can be spun either way. I am inclined to think, however, that Obama comes off looking better than Palin in terms of experience. The larger the number of people you represent, the more difficult it becomes to do a good job. Even disregarding his U.S. Senate experience, Obama represented three quarters of a million people as a state legislator (more than Palin has represented as governor of Alaska), and did it well enough to be elected three times running.

devilman2045 wrote:
If you sit down and look at his voting record, and the actual laws he voted for, you'll find what he says and what he's voted for are two different things.


Show me a politician whose voting record and positions match up 100%, and maybe then that will be a point worth making. Of course, I should also point out that politics involves compromises on a regular basis. Sometimes you have to give up something in order to get concessions on something else from your opponents. A politician who cannot compromise when necessary will accomplish very little.

I support Obama, mostly because he's curious. A good president does not necessarily need to be super-smart. But a good president really needs to be curious. Curiosity spurs people to ask questions, to read, to try and find things out. A President needs to make decisions about many, many things, and no one but no one can know everything about all of them. Presidents are naturally forced to make decisions about things they're not expert on. A curious President will try to gather more information -- from experts on that field, from books and articles, and so on. An incurious President will not. With more information available, the curious President is likely to make a better decision than the incurious one. Obama strikes me as deeply curious about the world. The fact that he's written books himself (as opposed to hiring a ghost-writer like so many other politicians) is greatly in his favor there. It takes a lot of time, research, and effort to write a book, especially books dealing with political policies.

By contrast, McCain does not strike me as curious. He has written books, but they were ghost-written -- somebody else did the hard work on those. Consider also the Internet. It's rapidly transforming the way people conduct every aspect of their lives. It's the biggest thing to happen to information since the printing press was invented five and a half centuries ago. A curious man would seek to learn more about it; yet McCain has learned very little about it, and relies on his wife for help in operating his computer. I'm glad he was willing to turn to her for help, because it indicates that he's at least willing to learn a little bit. But a curious man would learn much more about them, well before now. It's 2008, and we have been rapidly integrating computers into our culture for decades now. The personal computer really started widespread adoption in the '80s, and the pace picked up markedly once the Internet hit the scene starting in 1996. He's been around for that. How is it that he doesn't have at least the basics down by now? Heck, my mother's on Facebook now, and she swore years ago that she'd be the last computer illiterate on the planet.

Perhaps McCain represents change, or at least some change. Obama definitely does, probably to a greater degree and in a more productive way.

Whoever we wind up with as President, he's going to have his work cut out for him, though. After eight years of George W. Bush, there's plenty that needs changing.

Whew! Long post. Took a while to dig up all those citations.
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Tinu.



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 7:42 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm fence sitting a bit here. On the one hand, I don't really think Obama has had enough experience to run the country yet. If he were to come back in a few years, then we'll see. But as of right now, I dunno. And I really don't care for the democratic platform in general. On the other hand, I absolutely loath McCain's foreign policy. Ugh. Maybe I'll vote independent on this one.
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Tamir



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 10:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Israeli though I may be, I have voting rights in the US and I plan to make use of them. However, I have absolutely no idea who to vote for. Confused I've heard a lot and yet not much at all....

Right now I'm reading up on the candidates and watching the September 26th debate. I'd appreciate it if you guys could point me at good sources of information. ^_^
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:43 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinalles wrote:
devilman2045 wrote:
Palin - 4 yrs as Govenor, plus previous number of years as a city council leader.


Hmm. According to Sarah Palin's official biography at the Alaskan State Government web site, she took office as governor on December 4, 2006. If I count correctly, that's 670 days as governor, which is just over one year and ten months.

And previously, she was the Mayor of Wasilla, an exurb of Anchorage, starting from 1996. Before that she was a Wasilla city councilwoman, starting from 1992.

Reckoning by years, then, Palin's legislative experience consists of:

4 years as a city councilwoman (92-95)
11 years as Mayor of Wasilla (96-2006)
2 years as Governor of Alaska (07-0Cool

For a total of 17 years of experience.

devilman2045 wrote:
Obama - 173 days as a senator (out of a two year term). That's slightly less 25% of the time he was supposed to serve.


Are you referring to Obama's tenure as a state senator in Illinois, or the amount of time he's spent in the U.S. Senate, or both? Please clarify.

According to his official bio on senate.gov, Obama was sworn into office as a U.S. senator on January 4, 2005. I make that 1,369 days as a U.S. senator, or just over 3 years and 9 months.

Prior to that, Obama held office as a state senator in Illinois, representing the 13th district (part of Chicago's south side). He first took office on January 8, 1997, and was re-elected twice more for a total of three terms as a state Senator. So:

8 years as an Illinois state senator (97 to 04)
4 years as a United States senator (05 to 0Cool

For a total of twelve years legislative experience. I'm not sure where you're getting the 173 days figure.

Let's compare.

If you go strictly by year count, Palin has more legislative experience than Obama does -- 17 years versus 12 years. That leaves out some important things, though, such as what level of government they were working at. State level legislative work is more complex than city level, for example, because it involves larger numbers of people. Let's break it down by level of government: city, state, and national.

Code:
Legislative Level   Palin      Obama
Local               15 years    ---
State               2 years     8 years
National            ---         4 years


I've tried to make the columns line up just by eyeballing them, sorry if they don't work in your browser!

To continue, I notice a pattern here: Obama started higher on the scale and moved up more quickly. I'm not going to try to explain that; you could spin it either way, in favor of Palin or in favor of Obama. It is however worth noting.

Another factor to consider is how many people these two politicians represented. Let's start with Palin.

For most of her political career to date, Palin served in the city of Wasilla. According to the U.S. Census population finder, Wasilla had 4,028 in 1990, 5,469 in 2000, and an estimated population of 9,780 in 2007. (Notes for foreign readers: the U.S. Census occurs only once every ten years, so the next full census won't be until 2010). That means that during the first 15 years of her political career (88.24% of it to date), Sarah Palin was never responsible for more than 10,000 people. In her most recent office as Governor of Alaska, she's been responsible for a whole state, of course. Geographically it's the largest state in the union, but in terms of population it's rather small -- the most recent Census estimate for Alaska puts its population at 670,053.

For the bulk of Obama's political career so far (8 years, 66.66%), he represented Chicago's 13th District. The best estimate I've found for the 13th district comes from the web site of Obama's successor in that region, and puts it at 748,189 people in 2005, the year Obama left the office to begin at the U.S. Senate. (The same source lists the place's most unique feature as "McDonald's Hamburger University", so I'm not entirely certain the source is reliable -- if anyone has a more reliable source, I'd love to see it.) Since then he's been representing Illinois, having a population of 12,831,970 (2006 est.)

As with the years-in-service, population estimates can be spun either way. I am inclined to think, however, that Obama comes off looking better than Palin in terms of experience. The larger the number of people you represent, the more difficult it becomes to do a good job. Even disregarding his U.S. Senate experience, Obama represented three quarters of a million people as a state legislator (more than Palin has represented as governor of Alaska), and did it well enough to be elected three times running.

devilman2045 wrote:
If you sit down and look at his voting record, and the actual laws he voted for, you'll find what he says and what he's voted for are two different things.


Show me a politician whose voting record and positions match up 100%, and maybe then that will be a point worth making. Of course, I should also point out that politics involves compromises on a regular basis. Sometimes you have to give up something in order to get concessions on something else from your opponents. A politician who cannot compromise when necessary will accomplish very little.

I support Obama, mostly because he's curious. A good president does not necessarily need to be super-smart. But a good president really needs to be curious. Curiosity spurs people to ask questions, to read, to try and find things out. A President needs to make decisions about many, many things, and no one but no one can know everything about all of them. Presidents are naturally forced to make decisions about things they're not expert on. A curious President will try to gather more information -- from experts on that field, from books and articles, and so on. An incurious President will not. With more information available, the curious President is likely to make a better decision than the incurious one. Obama strikes me as deeply curious about the world. The fact that he's written books himself (as opposed to hiring a ghost-writer like so many other politicians) is greatly in his favor there. It takes a lot of time, research, and effort to write a book, especially books dealing with political policies.

By contrast, McCain does not strike me as curious. He has written books, but they were ghost-written -- somebody else did the hard work on those. Consider also the Internet. It's rapidly transforming the way people conduct every aspect of their lives. It's the biggest thing to happen to information since the printing press was invented five and a half centuries ago. A curious man would seek to learn more about it; yet McCain has learned very little about it, and relies on his wife for help in operating his computer. I'm glad he was willing to turn to her for help, because it indicates that he's at least willing to learn a little bit. But a curious man would learn much more about them, well before now. It's 2008, and we have been rapidly integrating computers into our culture for decades now. The personal computer really started widespread adoption in the '80s, and the pace picked up markedly once the Internet hit the scene starting in 1996. He's been around for that. How is it that he doesn't have at least the basics down by now? Heck, my mother's on Facebook now, and she swore years ago that she'd be the last computer illiterate on the planet.

Perhaps McCain represents change, or at least some change. Obama definitely does, probably to a greater degree and in a more productive way.

Whoever we wind up with as President, he's going to have his work cut out for him, though. After eight years of George W. Bush, there's plenty that needs changing.

Whew! Long post. Took a while to dig up all those citations.


Actually, I must confess that I was wrong on my statement on the length of time Obama has served. I missread the information I cited. I apologize.

Tamir, if you go to www.wikipedia.com you can look up all the canidates, and find out where they stand, and get a good since of who everyone is. It even has links to their voting records, and service records.
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Tyris



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 2:56 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinalles wrote:
If you go strictly by year count, Palin has more legislative experience than Obama does
Why are you comparing Palin to Obama in the first place? Are you expecting McCain to have a heart attack and put Palin in the President's chair within a week?
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Allicat



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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 3:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

devilman2045 wrote:
Tamir, if you go to www.wikipedia.com you can look up all the canidates, and find out where they stand, and get a good since of who everyone is. It even has links to their voting records, and service records.


I'm always wary of wiki. It's certainly a good starting place but please make sure and check all the references.

As far as the election goes, I'm trying to follow it since I reckon it will have an impact on the politics of other countries too (I'm from the UK), it's just so darn different to ours, and I don't entirely get that! I feel Obama would possibly make a better leader of people and I also tend to agree more with his policies.

</my2cents>
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