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Asa



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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Location: Grammar Police HQ. Watch your language, I'm armed with the NYTimes Style Book AND Strunk and White!

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 9:56 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I agree with you. I think the fault lies with sensationalist media, not the justice system itself.
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Tinu.



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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Location: The land of dreams

PostPosted: Fri Aug 17, 2012 4:42 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The reason the media has to use flimsy, unequivocal language like that is because if they don't they'll get sued for libel. Which is a position no journalist wants to be in. Wink

You can't say someone was accused of a crime unless there is a prosecutor's signature on the paper accusing them of it. You can't suggest in any way that they actually committed the crime unless they have been sentenced by a judge and jury.

The media is sensationalist, but that's because that's what people read, watch, and want to know about. It's a never ending cycle.

That being said, there is a lot of controversy over media coverage of criminal trials, because of the possibility of bias. There are actually checks put in place to try and limit the possibility of bias--or there are supposed to be. The jury is supposed to avoid media, or it can be hung, I think. The media is supposed to limit reportings of the proceedings or not put them in prominent places (such as, not on the first page).

I found the chapter on the Justice Beat really boring so I don't remember exactly, other than to say that there ARE supposed to be checks and balances to prevent biasing the jury. If the media gets to out of hand the judge can make the trail closed to the media, and forbid anyone to give out information on it.

That's not to say that these things always work . . . . but they are there.
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Nem



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Sep 20, 2012 10:02 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

From time to time I wander onto an Apple website, generally because it's linked from somewhere.

Picture

I generally wander off again pretty quickly.

My first thought was honestly "In this day and age?"

Quicktime is a horrible player, attached to a horrible format. It's like the .pdf of video - except it lacks .pdf's wide acceptance. The first thing I did when I was stuck on a mac a while back was to install VLC.

I don't really get why they insist on using their own format. Sure it will display okay on their own computers, but so will other stuff. It just seems a total loss of a massive portion of the people you could get to use your site. Who's honestly going to go to the trouble of installing your program for a video format they might see twice a year?

#

In other news, I really like the look the dwarves have going =p
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Last edited by Nem on Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:31 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Tenshi



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 2594
Location: Star Stuff

PostPosted: Wed Oct 03, 2012 1:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

First, let me say, as an iPhone owner and thus an Apple user? I somewhat dislike Apple as a company. They don't tend to innovate nearly so much as they want people to think of them as innovators, among many other little flaws. Still, I own an iPhone 4, and I'm not likely to just go run out and buy a non-Apple phone for the sake of owning a non-Apple phone. I'm satisfied with what it is capable of (after Jailbreaking it), so it suits my needs.

Anyway, my own little post. It's not venting, per se, but it doesn't belong anywhere else.

A commentary on "Mechanical Limitation" versus "Social Limitation"

There are two ways to prohibit activities in any system; be it a game, a job, a clubhouse, or any sort of thing which has social interaction.

The first is to clearly define boundaries with "mechanical limitation", and this is used for some strict boundaries. These are your things like "don't go out of bounds" or "once the clock expires, the game ends". Things like "your shift lasts 8 hours" or "don't pass a car through double yellow lines."

However, these controls are heavily punishable if they're broken. If you violate these rules, you can be ejected from whatever system you're in. That's why you need, additionally, "social limitations" to allow people to work together inside of the "mechanical limitations."

"Social limitations" might look like "help the other team's players up after a play", or "the play is more interesting/stressful when time is running out." Likewise, "don't drink the last of the coffee without making a new pot", or "don't drive too close to the car ahead."

But I haven't mentioned the clubhouse, and here's why. A clubhouse, which [our game] is more akin to than it is to Football/Basketball, is almost entirely Social. Our rules are light. The Game Master's word is law, and you can't harass other players, but your character is WELCOME to be a total jerk if that's what you're into. Why can we do that? Because [our game] heavily relies upon social limitations.

If your character is a complete jerk to everyone, attacks them, uses skills so brutally effectively that they shut down any attempt to interact with them, then they will find themselves very quickly at the mercy of social limitations. For example, if they use spells or skills to shut down anyone else's attempt, people won't participate with spells or skills around them. If they interject in every conversation, people will stop having conversations around them. If they theatrically demand attention, few will earnestly give it to them. The harder they push to assert total dominance when the group does not choose to give it to them, the more excluded they are from the social component of the club.

Mechanically we NEED to have abilities in the game that are trump cars. We NEED to have powerful things that people can hold as an ace in the hole, so that when they DO decide to use them, they feel they're doing something almost taboo, something risky, something thrilling. We NEED to provide people the ability to break the social mold from time to time, because otherwise we're just creating a second "real world" with bland, rote interaction and predetermined, single-path "best dice" roles.

[Our game] has never been, and (in my opinion) should never be another push-button RPG where the end game is decided before you ever create a character. The difference between Mechanical and Social Limitation. This is why we should allow the game to limit itself with Social Limitation. We should only Mechanically limit what characters have the power potential to do, but never should we mandate how they use that power.
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Nem



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: England

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 1:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Do you ever watch sales people? I do all the time.

Nothing communicates to you so clearly the difference between talking and communicating as door to door sales. D2D salespeople spend hours walking around and running through a pre-set script.

Hello there sir/madam. I don't want to worry you, it's nothing serious. We're in the area on behalf of $CompanyName. I don't know if you've heard of us?

No.

No? Hardly anyone we've talked to today has. One of the reasons we're in the area is to try to raise awareness. We work with....

Yes. Oh that's excellent, well then I'm sure you know that we work with...

It's like when you play a roleplaying game and they're trying to herd you down one route.

The thing is. It's never really the other person's turn to talk until the end. When they've run through their whole spiel, said that the neighbours are chipping in - whether they are or not - and gone 'And I'm sure we can count on your support as well.' It's blietzkrieg - start talking before the other person, keep talking, ask questions that have answers that will likely lead into continuing the sell.

It's a very stupid way of selling anything, because you end up wasting a lot of time not reading whether the other person is likely to yield. Which you're not just going to get off their face. It wastes a lot of time. But if you're dealing with people with a few days or week's training, who ain't that bright to begin with, it's a relatively high percentage technique.

What other common tricks to sales are there? Well, I guess there's the obvious passive aggressive routine: Feel, felt, found.

I understand how you might feel X, I felt the same way. Now I've found that....

It's all lies... fluff. Social pressure. They're not really saying anything, most of the time - you could slot any words in there to vaguely relate the structure to the subject.

Don't trust them, stop listening to them. Sales people are professional manipulators, hired liars. They're perfectly normal people the rest of the time mind, just as a murderer will tend to be fairly normal most of the time. But you need to know that, if you go into a store or someone turns up on your doorstep or the like - that's their business. You know? It is what it is.

These are discussions that do not need to happen. It's just someone trying to take something that they don't deserve solely based on the strength of their product.
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Allicat



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: Back in the Shire.

PostPosted: Sun Oct 14, 2012 3:09 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I found one simple statement works wonders with door to door salespeople, as well as Jehovah's Witnesses: "I'm moving to Norway in a week."
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Asa



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
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Location: Grammar Police HQ. Watch your language, I'm armed with the NYTimes Style Book AND Strunk and White!

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 5:53 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nem, that's when you point to your door and say, "See that? No solicitors allowed."

Oh right, it's got a different meaning. But anyway, same idea. Pre-empt them. Smile and say, "I'm sorry, I'm not interested."

Or, if you're a master salesman like my dad, you can beat the mat their own game. It's super-amusing to watch my dad discomfit and confuse door-to-door salesmen and political representatives. They always walk away scratching their heads.

Alli, are you really moving to Norway in a week?
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Self-styled Forum Grandmother, because I hand out nicknames and hugs whether you want them or not. ^_^

Keeper of the Library and the Gateway to Haven

Nem: "It's the sort of face you just know is getting ready to poke you with something sharp."
BS: "...then insist you eat a brownie."
__________________
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this and all is mended...
Give me your hands if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.
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Allicat



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 1391
Location: Back in the Shire.

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hehe, I'm already here! I was referring to when I had my own flat in the UK. There was a big community of Jehovah's Witnesses nearby and they would delight in trying to convert the scientists who worked at our lab, despite the fact that many were already happy in their chosen religions.
I have nothing against spreading the good word, but targeting people for any reason leaves a bad taste in my mouth.
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Tinu.



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The good thing about not living in a neighborhood or in the suburbs or in an apartment complex is that salespeople and Jehovah's Witnesses don't come to my house.

I think the Jehovah's Witnesses made it to our door once. After we'd been living here for ten years or so.

I think the common response to door-to-door people in this area is to pull out a shotgun and threaten to shoot if they don't scram. And if they're persistent you shoot and then call the cops and charge them for trespassing.

>>;;

You could always try getting a sign to put on the door? Then you've already warned them so you can just slam the door if they knock anyways.
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Tenshi



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 12:57 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have a friend who has a perfect response to solicitation via the phone. Imagine the following in a slightly higher pitched, long, drawn out "elderly" voice.:

Seller: "Hello sir! I would like to interest you in X product."
Friend: "Oh, I'm soooo glaaaaad you caaaalled me. Nobody ever calls me any more."
Seller: "Oh, uh, I'm very glad to hear that. Now, about X product..."
Friend: "Why, I haven't had any phone calls since little Johnny got locked up in prison. No he's a real nice boy. I don't think he done what they said he done."
(At this point the telemarketer devolves into trying, desperately, to get things back on track.)
Friend: "I get soooo lonely now that Johnny isn't here any more. He used to write me letters from prison, you see. He hasn't written me... in a loooong time. I'm so glaad you called. Will you be my frieeeend?"

My friend went on like that, in that vein, for quite a while. The telemarketers always hang up after a certain point, and (generally) don't call that number again for quite a while.

Hey, the way I look at it, they came to your private space. Prepare to enjoy my sense of humor. On the other hand, I don't agree with being mean to them. They are, largely, still just doing their jobs.
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. Dubbed "Usagi" by AsA .
Keeper of the Siderean Swords

"If by chance some day you're not feeling well, and you should remember some silly thing I've said or done, and it brings back a smile to your face or a chuckle to your heart, then my purpose as your clown has been fulfilled."
Red Skelton
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TheBritishInvasion



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I know a girl who accidentally sort of joined a cult because she was too polite to ask them to leave.

It often gets on my nerves that I look much younger than I am but it helps when dealing with door to door salespeople; I lie and they can't sell to anyone under 18 so that gets rid of them pretty quickly.
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Tenshi



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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 2:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Inversely, graying early and sounding like my father leads to people trying to sell me things meant for him. Usually takes two or three times of correcting the first name before they ask if the other Mr. (last name) is present..

My initial thought is that I would troll a cult so very hard, but when I think about the psychology of how they 'induct' members, it's a bit more tricky. The initial requests are usually very minor, easy to do. However, complying with one leads you to more easily complying with the next one, and so on. Eventually you're sacrificing lambs on an altar to some deity you've never been able to pronounce, or drinking arsenic-laced kool-aid to join the aliens following a comet as it passes the planet.

Seems ridiculous, but it's actually a kind of well documented psychological phenomenon. Check out http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foot-in-the-door_technique for a bit better explanation of how it works and all. It's scary stuff.

...I'd like to think I'd avoid either of those two endings. There's a point at which your brain must say "Nope. That's just silly." right? Right? o_o'
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. Dubbed "Usagi" by AsA .
Keeper of the Siderean Swords

"If by chance some day you're not feeling well, and you should remember some silly thing I've said or done, and it brings back a smile to your face or a chuckle to your heart, then my purpose as your clown has been fulfilled."
Red Skelton
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Nem



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
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Location: England

PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:24 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't think there is necessarily. I've seen otherwise quite competent people believing all sorts of nonsense. But... you can always make up your mind ahead of time - build stop points into your routine behaviour. For instance, Nem never does anything immediately from someone at his door, or who stops him in the street, or who stops him in a shop, no matter how good their pitch sounds. Commits to wait a minimum of two days and until he's at least looked at other options.

And generally, if you've committed to wait, the persuasive effect tends to massively decrease.... That's one of the reasons why they push you so hard to do it on the door, there and then.

Other things worth doing along that line seem to be stuff like not being able to predict the risks and rewards of a relationship. (Since that's one of the hallmarks of brainwashing.) Commit to end it if you're summing up after a certain a mount of time and find yourself in that situation.

#

People don't tend to take any notice of signs around here. Don't think they even read them. Would be nice to be able to shoot at them ^_^; Or tell them I'm moving to the land of the troll. Maybe we should hire a troll to stand next to the door and see them off....

d2d people just tend to get the - "I'm afraid I don't do this on the doorstep." line.

Unless they're Christians or something - "Come into my well stocked library. I have tea. Or hot chocolate!"
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Tinu.



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:35 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nem wrote:

Unless they're Christians or something - "Come into my well stocked library. I have tea. Or hot chocolate!"

"'Come into my parlor,' said the Spider to the Fly."
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Allicat



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PostPosted: Tue Oct 16, 2012 4:03 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

TheBritishInvasion wrote:
I know a girl who accidentally sort of joined a cult because she was too polite to ask them to leave.

It often gets on my nerves that I look much younger than I am but it helps when dealing with door to door salespeople; I lie and they can't sell to anyone under 18 so that gets rid of them pretty quickly.


They can preach to people under 18 though, apparently. I have never seen my mother so volcanically angry as when we returned home and found two Jehovah's Witnesses on the doorstep talking to my brother through the window. He was about 9 at the time and we'd left him for maybe half an hour to clean our church. Mum came down the driveway shaking with fury and very calmly told us to go into the playroom (on the other side of the house) she then proceeded to give these individuals an absolute earful for trying to convert her 9 year-old son to their way of life.

I love my Mum, but she is a scary woman if she thinks you're a threat to her family.
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