FAQ Memberlist Usergroups Register Log in
Profile Log in to check your private messages Search

Beliefs and Religion
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
 
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> General Discussion
Author Message
YatesOfYore
Site Admin


Joined: 27 Dec 2006
Posts: 885

PostPosted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nem wrote:
Someone who simply gives you things without any potential to deprive you of anything may, in a sense, be seen to do you what good they do because you permit it. Having made a covenant with you for the preservation of their power to be held only as long as they use it more to your advantage than you would make of it were you to deprive them of the majority of it.


I'm not sure I follow, sorry.

But I do believe that respect can exist without fear of "violence", by which I assume you mean "reprisal" or something similar. Though if you'd like to argue the point, I would concede that we do all indeed have within us the potential for violence/ill deeds and that we do all make the choice to act on that potential... or our other potential for good.

So I guess, yes, we can be aware of the "potential of violence" contained in the other person, but to define a person or a feeling towards a person in terms of the absence of certain qualities isn't really a meaningful pursuit.
_________________
Keeper of Nanashi's Vambraces and the Amethyst Trees.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nem



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 2141
Location: England

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

It's impossible to decided not to do anything - in deciding not to help you've decided to do something other than helping, even if that's just sitting in a room looking at a wall.

In making that decision to do that something you lessen what the other person would have had if you had helped them instead, you make a decision and follow a course of action that takes from them, so you can be seen to have harmed them.

So someone who cannot harm you cannot do other than good to you.

If they could only do good to you then where would respect come from; how would it differ from affection?
_________________
Never forget,
We stroll along the roof of hell
Gazing at flowers.
- Issa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Asa



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3532
Location: Grammar Police HQ. Watch your language, I'm armed with the NYTimes Style Book AND Strunk and White!

PostPosted: Thu Mar 11, 2010 12:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

So what you're saying is that if you percieve someone as only capable of doing good for you, regardless of what the action is, then you love that person?

If I'm understanding you correctly, then you're right. G-d only does what is good for you, either in the short run or the long run. It may not seem good, but if you can keep it in mind that it's good for you, that's love. But most people can't quite get out of the negative mentality.
_________________
Self-styled Forum Grandmother, because I hand out nicknames and hugs whether you want them or not. ^_^

Keeper of the Library and the Gateway to Haven

Nem: "It's the sort of face you just know is getting ready to poke you with something sharp."
BS: "...then insist you eat a brownie."
__________________
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this and all is mended...
Give me your hands if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Lani



Joined: 09 May 2008
Posts: 37
Location: In the Library

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 12:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

*disclaimer: my beliefs declaimed forthwith* ^_^

The whole faith/works thing is frequently set up as a "faith vs. works" situation, when it doesn't have to be.

I believe that I am a sinner who cannot possibly attain righteousness. I can be a good person, I can do my best to become like Christ, I can do all these things, but in the end, my righteousness is as filthy rags, and I will always fall short. No matter how hard I try, I will never be able to keep the Commandments in my heart every single moment of every single day of my entire life-- and anything less is failing to keep the Law, in God's eyes. The penalty for sin is death.

That's why Christ came-- to pay the penalty sin for every man and woman who has ever lived, is living, and will live. He atoned for every time I fail to live up to God's standards. When I accept His sacrifice, when I acknowledge that I needed that sacrifice, it's a gift. There's nothing I can do to earn it-- no matter how good I am, or how hard I try, I'll never be able to live up to God's expectations.

However, that does not, in any way, remove the obligation I have to keep the Law. Grace does not mean that there are suddenly no consequences, or that the reality of sin miraculously disappears. However, instead of my life being about being a "good person," my life becomes about "becoming more like Christ." If I don't, there are definite consequences.
_________________
Wherever you go, there you are.

I now posses a Bachelor of Science in secondary education. I am excited.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website MSN Messenger
Nem



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 2141
Location: England

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 7:18 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asa wrote:
So what you're saying is that if you percieve someone as only capable of doing good for you, regardless of what the action is, then you love that person?

If I'm understanding you correctly, then you're right. G-d only does what is good for you, either in the short run or the long run. It may not seem good, but if you can keep it in mind that it's good for you, that's love. But most people can't quite get out of the negative mentality.



Not really, I'm saying that if you perceive someone as only capable of doing good towards you then you can't respect that person. Since respect is a pre-requisite for love you can't love them either.

Assuming you're right, that god only does what is good for you

- although I think the Jewish beliefs hold that utterly wicked people cease to exist, or something along those lines, so I'm not sure how that's good for them. -

then the point is not that god only does what is good for you but that he chooses to only do what is good for you. If it wasn't a choice, if you perceived that he lacked the ability to do otherwise assuming he wanted to, then how could you tell the difference between a loving relationship and simple compulsion?
_________________
Never forget,
We stroll along the roof of hell
Gazing at flowers.
- Issa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Asa



Joined: 10 Apr 2008
Posts: 3532
Location: Grammar Police HQ. Watch your language, I'm armed with the NYTimes Style Book AND Strunk and White!

PostPosted: Fri Mar 12, 2010 1:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What you're missing is several paragraphs I added later but apparently never made it onto the screen. I talked a bit about different definitions of respect - you can respect someone based on skills. Do you respect Mother Theresa? Albert Einstein? I assume you don't fear them. And who has more ability than G-d?

You can't lock G-d into human modes of behavior. Perhaps that's true for humans, but G-d is omniscient, and knows what's going to happen, and knows how things work, and yes, there's an apparent disconnect with free will. I don't think there is, but I'm very much a believer in the spiritual power of G-d, so...

The only 'compulsion' would be when free will is taken away. Which has been documented in Jewish history, and even then people think it wasn't removed as such, just forced into a situation where only one choice was possible. And it only happened to the bad guys. Angels have no free will, they are compelled to love and obey G-d simple because they're so close to Him that they literally don't see any other option. Humans are more removed from G-d, and always have choices. It's just a matter of degree.

Forgive my examples, I come from a limited background. A non-'righteous' has the choice whether to keep kosher or not, whether to kill someone or not. And these might be difficult choices for that person. Once a person has overcome that choice, he's faced with others, just as difficult. Speak gossip or not? To another person they might seem trivial, but they aren't - they are flaws within the person that he's trying to resolve, on a different level. Humans have choices to make, to do good or not, that's what differentiates us from the angels.

To address your question of perception: I believe that one of the factors that defines a religion is taking certain precepts as truth. Not on blind faith, but there has to be a point where you say, this is beyond human comprehension, and it would be foolish to try and understand it perfectly. If you believe in a higher being, you also believe that He is more than you could ever be or understand, that's why He's He and you're you. If you understand that, then you can understand that He does things and commands things we can't understand. We can learn out from them things that we need to know, but we'll never understand the root cause because the root cause is greater than the human mind can encompass. So I think that one of the founding truths is that G-d does good. We might not understand that it's good. But it is. If you don't accept the founding truths, then it's not really religion, it's just a mental exercise.

To address your side point, I'm not quite sure what you're referring to, so I'll refrain from comment.
_________________
Self-styled Forum Grandmother, because I hand out nicknames and hugs whether you want them or not. ^_^

Keeper of the Library and the Gateway to Haven

Nem: "It's the sort of face you just know is getting ready to poke you with something sharp."
BS: "...then insist you eat a brownie."
__________________
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this and all is mended...
Give me your hands if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Squeeself



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Nem wrote:
Not really, I'm saying that if you perceive someone as only capable of doing good towards you then you can't respect that person. Since respect is a pre-requisite for love you can't love them either.


So...What about babies? They are incapable of doing anything (well, other than crying, pooping, and eating). Since they're incapable of making any choices whatsoever, by that logic, you can't respect a baby, and therefore, can't love them. And you can't just pass it off as paternal instinct, since plenty of non-parents hold love for a babies. And yet, most people would not consider themselves to respect a baby...

I do not think respect is a prerequisite for love at all. Nor do I think your definition of respect is correct. Sure, what you describe is one form of respect, but respect goes beyond that. And love requires nothing...although if you love someone, you will respect them.

Maybe I shouldn't even mention self-respect either...

However, I would like to agree with you Nem on one point. And that is, that God chooses to be good. If he did not have free will, then he would not be all-powerful, and would therefore not be God. If he chose to do evil, then he would also no longer be God, just as I would no longer be a student if I chose to drop out of college. Would I? Never. Neither would God. I think it is an excellent point to say that God is capable violence, and can be respected and feared. Hellfire and Damnation and all that nasty.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Squeeself



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 5:33 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Asa wrote:
Angels have no free will, they are compelled to love and obey G-d simple because they're so close to Him that they literally don't see any other option. Humans are more removed from G-d, and always have choices. It's just a matter of degree.


Angels certainly do have free will. But why would they not love and obey God when they understand and can speak wit God. Those that choose differently are...well, Hosts of the Adversary, I suppose.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Nem



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 2141
Location: England

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 6:59 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Squeeself wrote:
So...What about babies? They are incapable of doing anything (well, other than crying, pooping, and eating). Since they're incapable of making any choices whatsoever, by that logic, you can't respect a baby, and therefore, can't love them. And you can't just pass it off as paternal instinct, since plenty of non-parents hold love for a babies. And yet,


Just gonna switch these around. Know you didn't actually put them in this order but ^_^;

Squeeself wrote:
if you love someone, you will respect them.


Squeeself wrote:
most people would not consider themselves to respect a baby...


The intuitive response seems to be to say no, you can’t have love without respect – whether it leads to respect or comes from it - because we want to preserve the idea of love as it refers to some people, our equals or superiors, with having the value of respect attached to it. But we seem to be using love in two mutually exclusive senses here.

We have, I think, several different versions of 'love' that we use depending on who we're applying them to. In the context of discussion about god I don't think we're looking at the same sort of love - from us at least - that a parent might have towards its infant. At the very least we’re looking at the sort of love that we would have towards an equal – and that I think presupposes respect based in their potential for violence.

Squeeself wrote:
Maybe I shouldn't even mention self-respect either...


If we think of the ‘self’ as a term for a multiplicity – the whole composed out of many different, sometimes conflicting, aspects - then self respect comes from the potential some aspects of us have for violence against some other aspects of ourselves. I find that to be quite an attractive option since it explains a lot of how we talk when we invoke ‘I’ as an explanatory term.

Asa wrote:
What you're missing is several paragraphs I added later but apparently never made it onto the screen. I talked a bit about different definitions of respect - you can respect someone based on skills. Do you respect Mother Theresa? Albert Einstein?


Well, no I guess I don’t respect them. I never knew them - and they're both dead. Even supposing they were alive however what I have of them is just a very incomplete representation, a caricature, and I don’t think it’s a full enough, or immediate enough, idea to respect either of them. If I knew them closely, then perhaps I would but

|
V

Asa wrote:
I assume you don't fear them.


Whether a skill in medicine or a skill in science you could turn it as easily to destruction as preservation. It’s hard to think of a skill that doesn’t, on some level or another, either by stirring peoples’ emotions or by its physical results represent potential violence – a reason for some level of fear. I assume people, when they talk about fear of god, aren’t immediately terrified of him either but I imagine that fear’s there on some level or another.
_________________
Never forget,
We stroll along the roof of hell
Gazing at flowers.
- Issa
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message MSN Messenger
Ravenna



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 637
Location: Toward The Terra

PostPosted: Sat Mar 13, 2010 3:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Point of Information/Clarification: Before the debate gets too convulted, I agree with Nem in that there are many different kind of love, and many different kinds of respect. Religious reverence is a totally different kind of emotion that one feels towards an infant.

The debate might go more smoothly if we clarified what value of the word we are discussing.

EDIT: Nem may have already said this. Oh, to hang.
_________________
Bernard [about the job]: The pay's not great, but the work is hard.
~ Black Books ~
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message Visit poster's website
Tenshi



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 2594
Location: Star Stuff

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Even though I've fallen out of this conversation, and I'm going to have to work my way back in at a later point, I would like to correct an assumption. Developmental Psychology has shown in repeated tests that babies DO have control of their minds. In fact, as early as a few months, babies learn to manipulate parents. Any parent who realizes their child is crying to see what will happen, or injuring themselves to get their way, knows this is the case.

Just saying, they CAN make decisions and such. Razz

Back to lurking..
_________________
. Dubbed "Usagi" by AsA .
Keeper of the Siderean Swords

"If by chance some day you're not feeling well, and you should remember some silly thing I've said or done, and it brings back a smile to your face or a chuckle to your heart, then my purpose as your clown has been fulfilled."
Red Skelton
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message AIM Address
Squeeself



Joined: 23 Mar 2008
Posts: 258

PostPosted: Sun Mar 14, 2010 5:25 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sure, there are various forms a love, and as I said, if you love, you'll generally respect as well. But there is no prerequisite assumption here. Where there is love without the a respect, perhaps there can be a love between equals without respect. Given that I've seen such situations, I do not place respect, especially under your definition, as a requirement of love.
Back to top
View user's profile Send private message
Display posts from previous:   
Post new topic   Reply to topic     Forum Index -> General Discussion All times are GMT - 4 Hours
Goto page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7
Page 7 of 7

 
Jump to:  
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum



Elveron phpBB theme/template by Ulf Frisk and Michael Schaeffer
Copyright © Ulf Frisk, Michael Schaeffer 2004


Powered by phpBB © 2001, 2002 phpBB Group