Beliefs and Religion

Lani · Joined: 09 May 2008 Posts: 37 Location: In the Library

*pats Tamir on the back*

nice. ^_^

My take on predestination is where it comes from in the Authorized version--
Romans 8:29--

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren."

What G-d "predestines," in this sense, is that it is always a primary of our Father, as Christians, that we become more like Christ. In my head, it's kind of the main point-- hence why we're called Christians (first at Antioch... the most literal translation is "little Christs").

Christians are "predestined" to become more like Christ, because that's what G-d wants for all of us. We're not forced to. We can choose to live for ourself, or we can choose to dedicate ourselves to a cause greater than us. The predestination doesn't take away from that choice, it is just a goal that exists for each of us.

Like I could have a goal of losing 10 pounds this year. Does that take away from my choice to eat the cheesecake? Obviously not. ^_^ I can choose to stick to my goal, or I can choose to deviate. Also, if my parent's goal is to send me to Harvard, I can choose to go along with that-- or not. Goals don't take away the necessity of choice.

Speaking of the freedom of choice... here:

http://www.npr.org/blogs/13.7/2010/02/freedom_from_free_will.html

What do you guys think of that? It kind of blew me out of the water and I'm still trying to wrap my head around it. It's not that I haven't heard this argument before, I've just never heard it put so... forcefully.
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Nem · Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 2126 Location: England

That’s roughly the way I always remember thinking about free will, the old fork argument. I think Tam asked at some point whether it was possible to imagine something that was neither random nor caused.

Heh, I keep trying to come up with a response to this stuff but the rest of this post is a bit of a mess ^_^

Durtan · Joined: 25 Sep 2009 Posts: 12 Location: hatU|Utah

I am not sure what the topic is right now (and since I am a little bit sickish i do not care to read through these massive posts to find out) so I will start a new topic Very Happy

What is the purpose of life?
For the LDS, people will give many answers, such as "to be tested" or "to become like God" which are all correct, but I have recently learned one that is the most accurate I have heard; the purpose of life is for us to become happy. I can give a more detailed explanation of this with references to scripture if anyone wants me to but that is the gist of it.

Also, just so I know and can better understand where each person's ideas come from I would like to know what religion you follow or what theological beliefs you have if you do not wish to define yourself w/a religion. I am LDS so I will be able to help most with questions regarding this faith.
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Asa · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 11:47 am Post subject:

Interesting question, and interesting answer. Where do you draw the line on being happy? I'm sure thieves are happy when they steal things, and terrorists are happy when they blow themselves up, but if the purpose of life is to be happy, should they be punished? They're fulfilling their purpose, after all.

Disclaimer: This is my opinion, and is definitely not held by all Jews. Tamir might have a different take on the matter.

One of the things I've heard from Judaism's point of view - and there are several, each an aspect of the whole - is to reveal G-d's presence in the world. What this means is following His commandments, and sanctifying His name. At the moment, He is concealed from the world, meaning He's not obviously involved. He IS, but unless you're looking for it, you won't see it. So a Jew's purpose in life is to bring G-d closer to the surface. (I suppose this is a particularly religious point of view, and may not sit well with everyone.)

But that doesn't cover everyone, and another aspect of the whole is what simpletoremember.com calls 'refined action,' basically, making the world a better place through making yourself a better person. G-d created the world imperfect, and created humans as partners in creation. This is a phrase that is used a lot in Judaism. G-d and man are partners, and it's our responsibility to live up to our end of the deal. Unfortunately, this doesn't always happen, which is why the world is the rotten place it is today. And no, I'm not talking about our generation in specific, it's been happening since the very first human - Adam didn't last three hours before he messed up, after all.

There's a story of a man who wanted to change the world (I'm sure I've repeated this here, before). Anyway, he decided that was too big a task, so he focused on his country, and found the same thing. He kept narrowing his focus, to his city, his neighborhood, his block, his family, his wife... and each time he found that the task was too great for him to handle. Finally he decided that the only thing he could really handle was to change himself. And as he changed himself, he influenced his wife, who influenced his family, who influenced his block, his neighborhood, his city...

The point is that humanity's purpose in life is to perfect the world in partnership with G-d. But a human's purpose in life is to perfect himself in partnership with G-d. That's all we can really be sure of affecting, and affecting permanently.

That's my opinion, and that's how I try to lead my life. I may have opinions about what others should do, but the only person I can really affect is myself and my actions. I try to refine myself and my actions to make my bit of the world a better place, and hope I influence others to do the same.
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Tinu. · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 1:24 pm Post subject:

To borrow Asa's disclaimer: This is my opinion, based on what I've been taught, and things I've discovered for myself.

One of Christianity's main goals is the conversion of the nations. We are required to "preach the gospel to all creation." However, how someone chooses to do this is entirely up to them (to borrow from Catholicism: in the words of Saint Francis "Preach always. When necessary, use words"). Therefor, part of the purpose of life is to preach the gospel. In a way, it agrees with Asa's explanation--we're here to show God to the world. Like I said, how that's done is entirely up to the person. Charismatic Christianity believes that each person has unique talents or "gifts" that they can use to "preach." For some people that is your classic preaching Evangelist, for others its something like Mother Teresa.

I believe that everyone is created with a purpose. Part of the purpose of life is figuring out what that purpose is. I believe it ties into the "gifts" or talents we are given, and learning to use those talents to praise God. In my mind, He has given us talents, and what better way to use them than to glorify Him? I believe that God doesn't just create people willy-nilly. Everyone that is born has a purpose, a future, created by God. However, whether they choose to follow that future is entirely up to them.

There are a lot of other opinions I've heard on the matter--To praise God, to love him, etc.--but those are the main two I keep coming across in regards to Christianity. They're both still my opinion, but they happen to be other people's opinions as well. I'm not sure if Christianity as a whole could ever agree on one reason.
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Tenshi · Joined: 18 Apr 2008 Posts: 2594 Location: Star Stuff

I'll not give you a disclaimer, because if you take offense from reading my opinion, I suggest you not have read my opinion. ;P

(In all seriousness though, I mean no offense by anything I say.)

I have no idea how to classify myself, religiously. Currently I have no affiliations, at least nothing concrete and approved and all that. I'll explain that a bit further down.

Growing up, I was raised with a religious view similar to Tinu. While we were all created for a purpose, and G-d was working specifically in each of our lives, our goal was not as much praise and worship as it was doing His work. We were supposed to "Be Christ-like in all of our actions", I think we were told. We were taught to turn the other cheek when struck, to offer a helping hand to a hated enemy, to love the worst of us, and so on.

As time went on, and I fell away from the church, I drifted around for a while. I attended services in several churches, I attended Mass many times, I even poked my nose in synagogues and mosques. I spoke with the Ba'hai, with the Unitarian Universalists (or whatever that one is), and even spent half a year in Cache Valley, Utah. If you've ever lived in northern Utah, you know that living there essentially means you're surrounded by, and studying, LDS scripture. When all of that was relatively fruitless, I spent a few years studying anything I could find on almost all of the major Eastern religions. Buddhism, Daoism, Shintoism, even the real Bushido (not really a religion, but I still emulate several aspects of it). I can say I'm fairly well versed in many things, because of all this study.

I came to the conclusion that there was something bigger than what all my pastors had told me. I came to disagree with the idea that I needed a church to speak to G-d, and that my relationship with my creator was as much a part of life as breathing and eating were. Surely, I could stop any of those things at any time I chose. My chances of surviving long with out it were not very good, however. Mind, this was coming back from a stint of atheism, so it was quite a leap for me.

Without a religious leader to shape my religious views, I sought my own answers, and came to a similar conclusion as Asa. I may not be able to "earn" my way into Heaven, by the Christian scripture. I accept this, and if I'm wrong, I'm certainly okay with that. I can, however, live my days and make my efforts into an attempt to heal a hurting world. To show compassion to the callous, love to the angry, tolerance to the judgmental, patience to the lustful, and so on. Essentially, I took the seven deadly sins as a guidebook of things I should try and show people a better way through. Razz

For me, G-d is a part of that. If I do good works, I know it is because he gives me the strength to do them. I have faced situations where I could, and likely should have, died far too often to believe in dumb luck at this point. I know he has a role for me to play, and so I will do so for him. In his name. All of that.

And interestingly enough, I am rewarded for doing these good deeds. In them, I find greater inner peace and strength than I had ever known on my own. Since I receive something for my efforts, they are not selfless, and thus I have made no progress on redeeming myself. Ah, that's right, I suppose some of that Christian upbringing HAS followed me. "For all have sinned, and fall short of the glory of G-d", right? ^_^ I'll just have to keep working at it, and let him judge me when the time comes.

Sorry for rambling.
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YatesOfYore · Site Admin Joined: 27 Dec 2006 Posts: 861

You've always got to be careful when using a term like "happy". It's just so loosely defined. Instead of "happy", I think I'd use "peace" - to find peace brings a calm and sustainable joy - one that most religions would say is to be found in keeping the commandments of God.

Tinu. · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 3:18 pm Post subject:

Tenshi · Joined: 18 Apr 2008 Posts: 2594 Location: Star Stuff

@LadyYates: Faith/Works

I have no idea how this stacks up with other beliefs, but I have come to believe that Faith and Works are, like Tinu said, intertwined. If you have faith, you will do the works. If you do the works, it will strengthen your faith. Therefor, faith without works often does die.

Imagine it like this, if you will: An Olympic Gold Medalist comes home from the Olympics, and celebrates their achievement. Then, they do absolutely no training for four years. After all, they won a gold medal, why should they have to improve themselves any further? They are the best in the world, are they not? Their role is firmly placed. They return to the Olympics after four years, and not only do they place absolutely last in their group, they can't come CLOSE to their previous scores.

Why? For the same reason as any other thing. We humans are creatures of repetition, of patterns and exercises. Having Faith that we will be saved, alone, is not enough. I suppose I never believed it was, come to think of it.

I agree with you, I should have just said to begin with. Regardless of whether you believe in Jesus as the messiah or not, there is definitely no way that this life is a "free ride" as you put it. I could cite passages where it's written that we should go out and do good works, but... I mean, really? Where to START?!

As Tinu said, if you truly believe, then you will do His will. Not because you feel you must, but because you want to. A few passages from my favorite book (kidding! XD), thanks to Tinu's excellent ability to know what passages I was talking about: Matthew 7:15-20
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Keeper of the Siderean Swords

"If by chance some day you're not feeling well, and you should remember some silly thing I've said or done, and it brings back a smile to your face or a chuckle to your heart, then my purpose as your clown has been fulfilled."
Red Skelton

Asa · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:16 pm Post subject:

Well, there are several levels of service to G-d. The easier is Fear of G-d - you do the right thing because you know you'll be punished, and so you comply out of fear. The far more difficult level to attain is Love of G-d, wherein you do things completely for the sake of G-d. However, it is my belief that you can't get the second without going through the first, otherwise its just lipservice.

There's also "because G-d said so," but that's a cop-out answer. Doesn't cut it, unless you've gone through the whole cycle and are out the other side, and are using the phrase as an expression of your love and devotion to G-d. But the vast majority of people can't honestly say that and mean it.
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BS: "...then insist you eat a brownie."
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Tyris · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 6:45 pm Post subject:

Going from "fear of" to "love of" is usually called Stockholm Syndrome...
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Asa · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 7:33 pm Post subject:

Except in religion, where it's called enlightenment or something similar. We call it 'returning', actually, is the literal translation - a returning to the preferred state of existence. Mankind used to be in a state of ahavas Hashem (love of G-d), but went wrong over the generations. One who returns to ahavas Hashem is a special person indeed.
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Self-styled Forum Grandmother, because I hand out nicknames and hugs whether you want them or not. ^_^

Keeper of the Library and the Gateway to Haven

Nem: "It's the sort of face you just know is getting ready to poke you with something sharp."
BS: "...then insist you eat a brownie."
__________________
If we shadows have offended,
Think but this and all is mended...
Give me your hands if we be friends,
And Robin shall restore amends.

Nem · Joined: 14 Apr 2008 Posts: 2126 Location: England

Can love exist without respect; can respect exist without a certain awareness of the other's potential for violence, a certain fear?

Someone who simply gives you things without any potential to deprive you of anything may, in a sense, be seen to do you what good they do because you permit it. Having made a covenant with you for the preservation of their power to be held only as long as they use it more to your advantage than you would make of it were you to deprive them of the majority of it.

In a sense is this not how we distinguish the slave, who we necessarily have no love for, from the friend or ally who we can?
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Tinu. · Posted: Wed Mar 10, 2010 9:44 pm Post subject:

I was always taught that the fear of God was more like an extremely healthy dose of respect and awe. Because in the end, he is still God, and he is still everything that goes along with that. Mostly, I've just heard to it referred to as awe, of realizing how holy, or whichever reverent adjective one cares to use, he is.

In some cases, it can be literal fear, but it needn't stray into that realm very often. It's just remembering who's boss. He is God, and we are human. He is eternal, and we are merely mortal.

Of course, this is yet another point that many Christians disagree on.
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