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Vote for Change - V for Change
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Do you agree with my "Training Video"?
Yes!
16%
 16%  [ 2 ]
No!
75%
 75%  [ 9 ]
Bits and Peices
8%
 8%  [ 1 ]
Total Votes : 12

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Grimwatch



Joined: 11 Apr 2008
Posts: 139
Location: Somewhere in New Zealand, hiding

PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

(Aside from main topic - sorry Smile )
The problem with MMP (The system NZ and Australia (I think) use) is that it can allow one very minor party to play 'Kingmaker'. While that may sound like a good idea in some respects, it doesnt always work out that way. In NZ, 5% of the 'Party' vote will get you into Parliment. That means that 95% of the nation didnt want you, but you may still wind up deciding who actually holds the top job anyway. I freely admit that this may work well in some respects, but unfortunately in NZ it hasnt always produced the best results so far.

(Apologies for sidetracking from main topic, NZ elections are about the same time as the US so Im a little more focused on that Wink )
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Tinalles
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Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 8:29 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just realized that the system I described in my previous post is actually more like an instant runoff election than a Condorcet method. The Wikipedia article I linked to describes a true Condorcet election, in which every candidate is matched against every other candidate, and the winner is the one who beats all the other candidates in one on one matchups. It's more complex than the system I described.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 10, 2008 11:36 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bringing it back around though, would anyone mind if I put something up outlining the positives and negitives of both Presidential Nominees here in the US?

I'd be kind of curious to have a vote just to see who'd pick who, and who'd win via a mock "Earthsong Election".

That, or we could just vote me the Mayor of Awesome Town.....
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Tenshi



Joined: 18 Apr 2008
Posts: 2594
Location: Star Stuff

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 12:40 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I don't know that we could all agree with your list of pro's and con's, though... Undoubtedly you will find some things about Obama that are negative, while others view them positively.

I would suggest a far more...democratic approach. (Y'see what I did there?)

Why don't we compile a list of things we like and/or dislike about each candidate? We can even do it like a game, you can only announce one thing each post, and can't double post...
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Tinalles
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Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 1630
Location: Grand Forks

PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 1:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think both of those suggestions are highly likely to lead to flame wars.

Instead of organizing discussion around the candidates, we could organize it around the issues. Regardless of who actually wins, the next President is going to have to deal with:

- The economy, which is currently in one whole joo-joo flop situation;
- Energy independence or our lack thereof;
- Health care or our lack thereof;
- A war in Iraq;
- Another war in Afghanistan;
- The national debt, which has skyrocketed lately;
- Global warming;
- And lots of other huge complicated pressing issues.

In discussing a given issue, it would be natural to lay out positions from both candidates (and hey, maybe some third-party candidates for kicks!). Then we discuss the merits of those positions, as distinct from the people who hold them.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:08 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinalles wrote:
I think both of those suggestions are highly likely to lead to flame wars.

Instead of organizing discussion around the candidates, we could organize it around the issues. Regardless of who actually wins, the next President is going to have to deal with:

- The economy, which is currently in one whole joo-joo flop situation;
- Energy independence or our lack thereof;
- Health care or our lack thereof;
- A war in Iraq;
- Another war in Afghanistan;
- The national debt, which has skyrocketed lately;
- Global warming;
- And lots of other huge complicated pressing issues.

In discussing a given issue, it would be natural to lay out positions from both candidates (and hey, maybe some third-party candidates for kicks!). Then we discuss the merits of those positions, as distinct from the people who hold them.


I think that this is a grat idea, however, I would like to do some sort of a compremise with Tenshi's idea. Maybe we could only bring up one new issue per post per person?
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:44 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sorry for the double post here folks, but I just thought that I would show you all this. I think that this is kind of interesting.

http://current.com/items/89391056_thousands_of_voter_registration_forms_faked_officials_say_cnn_com
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theBSDude



Joined: 09 Jul 2008
Posts: 1800
Location: The boring part of Washington

PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 4:52 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dang... something like that happened in the Washington governor race last year... not at the same scale, but a bunch of votes were from dead people or convicted felons. There were three re-counts and the totals came out different every time.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 13, 2008 5:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

theBSDude wrote:
Dang... something like that happened in the Washington governor race last year... not at the same scale, but a bunch of votes were from dead people or convicted felons. There were three re-counts and the totals came out different every time.


Sad though really. Though Obama doesn't have any direct ties to it, he was still linked to it to some extent.
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Virturealm



Joined: 22 Mar 2008
Posts: 162
Location: OH!

PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 12:26 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Voter registration fraud is not voter fraud. If someone really wants to commit voter fraud, there's usually not a shortage of dead people to use. This is just what happens when a company pays people to register voters by quota. It puts a strain on the county officials, and those responsible should be fired and fined, but it doesn't have any effect on the election. As they say, Mickey Mouse is not going to show up and vote. It's voter suppression that should be a concern.

Anyway, WOW.

This forum.

I just read through this and I can not believe how nice this topic is. I am not capable of this. You're all weird.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Wed Oct 15, 2008 7:19 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Virturealm wrote:
Voter registration fraud is not voter fraud. If someone really wants to commit voter fraud, there's usually not a shortage of dead people to use. This is just what happens when a company pays people to register voters by quota. It puts a strain on the county officials, and those responsible should be fired and fined, but it doesn't have any effect on the election. As they say, Mickey Mouse is not going to show up and vote. It's voter suppression that should be a concern.

Anyway, WOW.

This forum.

I just read through this and I can not believe how nice this topic is. I am not capable of this. You're all weird.


Isn't it how we vote that determines the electoral college though?
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Tinalles
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Joined: 22 Mar 2008
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Location: Grand Forks

PostPosted: Thu Oct 16, 2008 5:17 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I think Virt was trying to draw a distinction between registration fraud and actual fraudulent votes.

In registration fraud, someone turns in fraudulent voter registration cards. If I understand correctly, some of the ACORN organizers have done that, because they get paid based on how many registrations they complete. It's a lot easier to pick up a phone book and fill out a thousand registration cards than it is to actually visit a thousand people and persuade them to register. In that situation, the fraud is economically based -- the organizer isn't trying to throw the election, but just wants to make more money. Incidentally, paying people based on how many people they register is dumb. The organizer should be paid hourly, so that they have an incentive to work longer, but not an incentive to turn in fake registration cards.

Fraudulent votes are an altogether different problem, in which someone IS trying to throw an election. Casting a fraudulent vote depends on having a fraudulent registration to use. So, for example, a passionately devoted partisan might send requests for mail-in ballots in the names of a hundred recently dead people, or attempt to register his dog to vote, or file a change-of-address form for an out-of-state person like a college student, so that ultimately he can send in fake votes for those dead, out-of-state, or non-human voters in order to change the outcome of the election. This kind of thing was rampant in Chicago fifty or sixty years ago. My impression was that that Chicago more or less got cleaned up in the sixties. I'm no great expert on Chicago, though, so I suppose I could be wrong.
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devilman2045
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:12 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Tinalles wrote:
Fraudulent votes are an altogether different problem, in which someone IS trying to throw an election. Casting a fraudulent vote depends on having a fraudulent registration to use. So, for example, a passionately devoted partisan might send requests for mail-in ballots in the names of a hundred recently dead people, or attempt to register his dog to vote, or file a change-of-address form for an out-of-state person like a college student, so that ultimately he can send in fake votes for those dead, out-of-state, or non-human voters in order to change the outcome of the election. This kind of thing was rampant in Chicago fifty or sixty years ago. My impression was that that Chicago more or less got cleaned up in the sixties. I'm no great expert on Chicago, though, so I suppose I could be wrong.


The point I'm trying to make in this whole thing though is that they've even Registered a Jimmy Johns (A resturant). This kind of resembles what you were talking about in a since,.... the registration of animals and what not. Why would you register Jimmy Johns just to get paid? That seems so obviously bogus, that it seems like they wouldn't do it.
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theBSDude



Joined: 09 Jul 2008
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PostPosted: Fri Oct 17, 2008 6:15 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Dude, even if it was a conspiracy, the people filling out the forms were doing it for money.
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unimportant



Joined: 14 Apr 2008
Posts: 566
Location: Right behind you.

PostPosted: Sat Oct 18, 2008 12:57 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Bottom line, as Tin and Virt said, it's not going to throw the election. It's illegal and immoral and bogus, but there's not actual fake votes being cast. And it should be used to slander a candidate, as neither of the candidates have anything to do with the fraud.


NEW INQUIRY!
Is anyone else being driven crazy by this "Joe the Plumber" nonsense? What does this guy have to do with the election, in any way shape or form?
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